[ENG] Army leaders limit ?

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Bawon Samdi
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[ENG] Army leaders limit ?

Post by Bawon Samdi » Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:19 pm

I was using the online army builder and I saw a new limitation: maximum number of leaders (1 / 100 army points). I've check the beta rulebook and this limitation is nowhere to be seen. Is that new ?

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PascalH
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Re: [ENG] Army leaders limit ?

Post by PascalH » Wed Jul 05, 2017 8:52 pm

I wondered why it said maximum 4 heroes...
But with the thing you said it does make sense by considering a 400 point army...

But I didnt found it in the rules either. Only the passage talking about minimums.
So it seems to be new!

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ajmendoza
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Re: [ENG] Army leaders limit ?

Post by ajmendoza » Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:53 pm

Bawon Samdi wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2017 5:19 pm
I was using the online army builder and I saw a new limitation: maximum number of leaders (1 / 100 army points). I've check the beta rulebook and this limitation is nowhere to be seen. Is that new ?
Hello!! Yes, that is a limitation added in the new version (I have just finish it). In the current version it was not limited and I some people were doing list with many.. many.. many leaders XD.

It is new. As well as some new percents (eg. cavalry limits is now 50% instead of 40%). I want to release the new pdf tomorrow. The english version still will have some grammar problems and grammar and weird expressions but some english players have helped me a lot and you will find a huge improvement :D.

I will add a text with the specific modifications of this new version, you will not need to read it all again xD.

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Bawon Samdi
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Re: [ENG] Army leaders limit ?

Post by Bawon Samdi » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:33 pm

ok. I guess we will have to deal with it. I was liking the flexibility of the list building very much.
What was the issue with multiple leaders ?

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ajmendoza
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Re: [ENG] Army leaders limit ?

Post by ajmendoza » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:41 am

Bawon Samdi wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:33 pm
ok. I guess we will have to deal with it. I was liking the flexibility of the list building very much.
What was the issue with multiple leaders ?
I saw people preparing some Army lists of 10 Ashigaru and 7 leaders. It did not looked pretty at all. Maybe a could increase the maximum leader number (and most surely I will do it) but I cannot let the players do those things.. the game could not be played.

"The problem" having multiple single characters is related to the end of the turn. If you have many multiple individual miniatures most likely a lot of them will be not able to be activated (if your enemy have less troops than you).

But I have been too aggressive this time and at least players should be able to have 1 leader per unit
What would you say if I increase this limitation to 2 leaders every 100 points? Still not happy?

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PascalH
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Re: [ENG] Army leaders limit ?

Post by PascalH » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:10 pm

I'm not sure about that. I think 1 leader per unit is too much. Some battles in history were thought with 80.000-120.000 men (for examples Tokugawa at Sekigahara)...
And now think of one leader per Unit!

If you scale that down to 400 points you could have between 4 and 6 units, so this would be around 8 and 12 leaders. With a cost of average 20 points per hero, you would have costs for leaders between 160 and 240 points...

Some with 2 per 100...
Would be 8 leaders possible, would mean 160 points out of 400. 40% leaders. Way to much of the clans bravest warriors and smartest strategists.

And of you want to play with single miniatures instead of troops you should go with torii or other skirmish games

Just my opinion :)

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Bawon Samdi
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Re: [ENG] Army leaders limit ?

Post by Bawon Samdi » Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:54 am

you certaintly have a far deeper understanding of this game balances than me so what i'm may suggest are just a bunch of wild ideas. If you say that the game is better that way i'm fine with it. I may be disapointed than my dreamed list are not legal anymore (not that big an issue in a friendly gaming group) but that's all.

Now about some ideas:
- maybe a max heroes limit of 1 plus 1 per 100 army points. That way, smallest armies will be slightly less constrained and bigger armies would follow a more traditional structure with a heroes/troops ratio that will lean more and more towards troops as the army size grows.
- why every hero is a leader ? At this point it's even irrelevent to add the leader trait in the hero description since every single one of them is a leader. Maybe i'm missing something but I think that some of them (as well as some elites) may loose the Leader trait: kensei, spy kydo hanshijidan, assassin, geisha, duelist
- maybe another way to limit the number of heroes is to count solo heroes as units of their own and includes them in the max number of units.

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PascalH
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Re: [ENG] Army leaders limit ?

Post by PascalH » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:46 pm

Could you post your list here?
I'm pretty curious about it and maybe I see it totally wrong ... :)
I wouldnt even say that I have a deeper understanding concerning the game mechanics and balances...
I just come from warhammer40k and there single models are most of the time overpowered.

But I believe @ajmendoza and the other guys writing the rules will find a solution, something between historical correctness, fun and balanced gameplay :)

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ajmendoza
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Re: [ENG] Army leaders limit ?

Post by ajmendoza » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:14 pm

Bawon Samdi wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:54 am
- why every hero is a leader ? At this point it's even irrelevent to add the leader trait in the hero description since every single one of them is a leader. Maybe i'm missing something but I think that some of them (as well as some elites) may loose the Leader trait: kensei, spy kydo hanshijidan, assassin, geisha, duelist
It is becouse of those elite leaders because of I added the leader trait. When I started the rules there was no leaders, just heroes and those elite leaders could only being deployed within an unit. But I did not like because profiles like the duelist are hero-hunters and forcing them to fight in an unit would not be desirable.

So, I created the leader figure to group every hero and those special elite profiles and give them all the same trait. Actually when I refer them I do not say leader but hero, but I had to add that concept in the book.

About leader limitation I am working on it. Trying to do it more flexible and enjoyable but somehow historical as well. Not easy! Haha

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